This sentence, “If we want to be in women’s lives, we must be the kind of people worth being around” sticks out to me the most. This is what I wish more men would come to understand, truly!
ya know, I was worried about that line, but when I asked myself what the point of this post was, that line stood out the clearest. I'm glad it was felt.
I think one of the pieces that goes unaddressed is that if being “high value” exists, it should stand on its own. If you have to coerce and dominate women into seeing how amazing you are and act accordingly, you’re really telling on yourself.
I love and appreciate all of this, but this took me smooth out: “Since retiring from the NFL, Cam has responded to the oversaturation of men who don’t read, starting podcasts by making one of his own.” 💀
I was conditioned to believe marriage is the ultimate goal. I am impressed by this generation that didn’t buy in to that.
I applaud women who make the choice not to make marriage and children their priority. Children are a shit ton of work. And so is marriage.
Now, I have 3 sons, 2 of them are autistic. It’s important for them to have their father in their day to day life, which gave me the option of making them my priority. They are young men now, and still need some level of support.
Now, both me and my husband’s mothers also need care.
We have been together for 30 years. We are life partners.
I am finally able to prioritize myself. We could have walked away, but our sons would probably not be the independent men they are becoming. Many on the spectrum do not work, or live independently.
I love your perspective.
Marriage and children is not for everyone, especially if you can’t be committed to the needs of your children. I am lucky that we are both committed to the prioritization of our sons. We disagree on a lot but our values are the same.
I loved this comment so much because it's real and it shares your perspective and journey. Thank you so much for sharing this with us and giving the real about marriage!
"This new man doesn’t have to be perfect because the lord knows I will never be. But they try their best every day to do good. That’s the type of man I am striving to become, a perpetual work in progress, but the type of work that fills you and the ones you love with pride."
Stanley, I am new to your thread but man, this hits hard! So beautiful. Thank you.
That whole last paragraph is exactly right. The world ran on women being slaves to men so that men could produce, but we no longer live in that world. Women are tired "mommying" men and want equal partners who can see them as people, not slaves. "Real men" are full, whole people with emotions who can express them without inflicting them on others. They can talk and share with their partners and they can also listen without judgement or needing to fix. We are all evolving. Thank you for an important conversation.
It's difficult for me to reconcile this perspective with the real world.
Rich, and poor alike, the man provides resources, and at least sex. I concede that most men aren't good at doing either of those, but still... If we're going to be fair, neither are women. Working women are making the same complaints men were making decades ago about the pressures of balancing family life with career.
If you work all day, your partner takes care of the kids, why is it that you still need to do some of their duties when you get off work? How is a division of labor "slavery" exactly?
For years I worked at home and my wife was out in the world. The majority of the child care and domestics fell to me. I don't know much about domestics so I hired somebody.
Women didn't have access to money unless men gave it to them. Women couldn't even have their own credit card without their husband cosigning until the 70s. Throughout history, women have been second class citizens. Even today things aren't equal. Millenials are better at shared responsibilities, but for centuries, women served men without any rights of their own. That's slavery.
I noticed how materialism reduces human beings into “things” of value or not of value. I was talking to my friend who is trying to get remarried and she asked me, “what do you see marriage as” so your post is timely. According to the Muslim tradition, God talks about marriage as half of faith. In gender studies class in college, we talked about marriage as “legalized prostitution.” So I think marriage is somewhere in between, it’s the vehicle for family life despite what we want in terms of our ego or desire. People in villages, people without means, with disabilities, with debt, with health conditions — all of them get married but in this market economy we might deem them “low value.” It’s quite scary to reduce men and women like that.
Omg Stanley did you get me mixed up with the fabulous Noha?! One Muslim hijabi woman for another? Such a high compliment, thank you because I adore Noha’s work and I hope she writes that piece! 😂😅 I know what it’s like to get confused as an Asian, and I don’t mind, really. I’m American and she’s Canadian, plus we would write vastly different things about the topic of gender.
lol it’s too funny!! I was going to DM you but I’m sure it’s a good moment for the internet. I’ve never been confused with another Muslim woman before in all my years in corporate, I’m used to being the only one in my industry lol but Substack is a big place with a lot of talented Muslim women writing. Anyway this happens to all the bipoc folks at some point anyway, lol
As I got to the end I said "that's it". I needed you to keep going lol. This was so good!! I have been thinking about this myself - why exactly do I want to get married and what does that mean for me as a woman. I truly want a partner, I want someone who is whole and at peace on their own, so I know that when we come together we are both choosing each other. Not out of a desire to find a place to live, not out of survival, not out of trauma, not out of loneliness but because we truly desire each other. I also believe in an egalitarian partnership so there's that.
Please don't say "love" because everybody defines love differently. How you think you're loving him might be something he doesn't even value. And vice versa.
Chad I am confused about your question “what does the guy you eventually marry want?” I have no idea I haven’t met him yet lol
Secondly I’m also confused by your second question “and do you guarantee that you will provide him?” Maybe you mean “what do I guarantee that I will provide him?” I think I have an answer but it maybe a bit more complex. Love is different to everyone. You are correct but people also think that when you get in a relationship you find “love”. No you are love, you embody that. So if you don’t already have love then a relationship is not going to provide that for you. This is why a concept called love languages exist. It’s the idea that love is expressed in different ways (like you said the way I may want to love him may be different from they way he wants to be loved or what he values about love). For example, I am a not a traditional woman. I am more emotionally androgynous and probably won’t be the more emotional person in the relationship. Some men valuing women who are more emotional or stereotypically “feminine” (that’s debatable lol) and I wouldn’t be able to always provide someone with emotional support even though I’m a great listener from time to time. I can be nurturing but I reserve my nurturing for the home front. I enjoy creating a safe, comforting and cozy environment where love thrives. (Ask my ex who always complimented my home). The home or hearth is a place of complete ease and relaxation. That’s what I provide for myself so that’s what a man would recieve when he’s in a relationship with me amongst other things. He will know that there will a place he can go to that provides stability and tranquility, a mix of nurturing and assertiveness. A place where we can go beyond the physical and material realms and nourish his soul. (Of course this may not be what he values, he may just wanna be slutted out and I can do that too but he might be a better match for someone else. He may want novelty or to feel desired. As I said all of these things are the nuances of love languages. I believe all relationships need a certain level of “meeting them in the middle” sometimes you will have to do things you don’t want to do because you love that person. So my goal is not to be everything to every man but the man that is for me will appreciate it. So yes love is essential but so is compatibility, sex, emotional intelligence, learning, friendship, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, values, shared vision and a lot more. I hope that answers your questions. ❤️
Let me apologize at the outset. I tell people that I apologize frequently. I mean no offense. But I tend to be blunt, and that sometimes causes unintentional offense. However, no matter what happens during this discussion I am not going to be intentionally disrespectful to you.
This does answer my question. If I distill what you've said, the man gets what you think he should get:
1. a place he can go to that provides stability, tranquility, a mix of nurturing and assertiveness
2. A place where we can go beyond the physical and material realms and nourish his soul. (What does this even mean? Are we reading Kahlil Gibran to each other? Who decides what "nourishes his soul"? Your Goddess Energy tarot club?)
So a home that you control?
And the man also gets to give you what you think you should get.
1. Someone who is whole and at peace on their own
2. Someone who desires you.
This doesn't sound like an egalitarian partnership.
I know in our culture we're supposed to pay lip service to the bromide that, "we're all different. We're unique."
But that's just not true.
We can't be unique if we're wearing the same brands. Going to the same functions. Observing the same holidays. Communicating similar desires. Lusting after the same items. And more often than not, after the same people.
Are we unique because you like red, and I like pink? Are we unique because you're right wing and I'm left-leaning (not asserting you are right wing here. I don't know your politics)?
Most people want the same things. I think it's interesting to delve into why most people want the same things, the same outcomes, but that's not important for the purposes of this conversation.
I am willing to bet good money that if you asked 10 men what they want from women (and they are allowed to be honest) you will get the same 5 answers. And I'm willing to bet these would be tangible things. Not inchoate phenomena like "nurturing" or "assertiveness" or "spiritual intimacy." Every culture, every race, every income bracket. We're really not that complicated.
The question I'm asking is, you say you want a marriage to a man (eventually). Let's look at marriage as a merger. You want some things. The man wants some things. We're going to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement.
You can tell me what you want, and even what you think the man SHOULD want (which is again what you want) but you can't articulate what most men actually want. Why?
Hard for the man to want the merger if the negotiation is starting out so one sided. Agree?
Chad I’m not sure what answer you really want out of me lol maybe you should write a newsletter about it since you seem to have so many questions and insight about this particular topic. I’ll end with this because it’s at beyond my understanding. All relationships are customizable therefore there is no standardized framework for relationships which you seem to be alluding to in some way. Say I did want to control the home, who cares? You asked me what I provided and I answered. We can agree to disagree at that point. I don’t know what most men would want because 1. I’m not a man 2. All men are not a monolilth so how can say they are not that complex 3. If you know the five things all men want why didn’t you just say that in the first place. 4. Egalitarian relationships aren’t exactly thing for thing.
Chad I’m not sure what answer you really want out of me lol
Just whatever you think is true, Deziré. 😁 Would you be willing to grant me that?
This isn’t a test or trap. Just an honest discussion between curious people. No gotchas, no slams, no “owns,” I promise. But if you’re not willing to engage, no issue from me, Ma. No pressure. No argument.
[M]aybe you should write a newsletter about it since you seem to have so many questions and insight about this particular topic
Would you help me write it by sharing your perspective with me?
I appreciate what you’ve already shared with me thus far. 🙏🏾
(Also, why you bussin’ 🔫🔫 at me, Ma? You scared?) 😈
Do you know where you get this from Deziré?
All relationships are customizable therefore there is no standardized framework
Dating, engagement, marriage, divorce. Those don't make up a standardized framework? What about dowries or arranged marriages? Are those standardized frameworks?
You asked me what I provided and I answered. We can agree to disagree at that point.
Agree to disagree about what you provide? That doesn't make sense.
All men are not a monolilth so how can say they are not that complex
I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't want to ascribe positions to you that you didn't take. What I would ask as clarification is, what do you mean by “all men are not a monolith”? Is there a man who exists who does not have the characteristics that would make him a man?
If you know the five things all men want why didn’t you just say that in the first place.
Because I wanted to see whether you knew, and if you didn't know, find out why you don't. Cultural thing? Social thing? Personal thing?
Is this inappropriate? I apologize if it is. Please forgive me.
4. Egalitarian relationships aren’t exactly thing for thing.
I did not say they were. I said what you described wasn't egalitarian. Was I wrong?
Appreciate you Deziré. You don’t have to answer right away (or ever). But I hope you will. I find your perspective fascinating.
Take care of yourself. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Okay I decided to just post my response here instead:
I wanted to respond to your questions, comments and concerns.
1. You asked - “Dating, engagement, marriage, divorce. Those don't make up a standardized framework? What about dowries or arranged marriages? Are those standardized frameworks?
Yes dating, marriage, engagement, marriage and divorce all have standardized frameworks. These frameworks are set by the current culture, laws, etc.
When I said that “all relationships are customizable” I was speaking to how these standardized frameworks are essentially played out. For example, one couple may date for 6 months, 2 of those months were spent talking, 3 of the months were spent dating (while exploring other options) and then 1 month they were exclusively in a relationship and then they decide to become engaged to be married. That’s just one example. Whereas someone may think this is way too fast and excludes essential steps in the dating process.
Those two or three or more (polyamory) individuals customize the standardized framework to fit how they would like to proceed with the relationship. Of course not all individuals have these type of freedoms such as arraigned marriages.
(For example, I want two husbands 😈)
2. You asked for clarification - “what do you mean by “all men are not a monolith”? Is there a man who exists who does not have the characteristics that would make him a man?
This again goes with your idea that men all want the same five things. That’s a very crazy generalization. You said previously that if you asked 10 different men what they wanted you believed that they would all say the five same things. I disagree because I have asked mutiple men what they have wanted and none of their answers aligned. That is a very bold generalization that reduces men to a monolith. There is a huge variation in personality, culture, identity, ideas and mentalities across men.
The last question is a bit confusing because we get into discussion about what makes a man “a man”. Is he less of man because he’s soft or likes home decor versus playing sports, no his interest are just different than the mainstream or homogenized desires of the current society. So essentially men are not all the same therefore they don’t want the same five things.
3. “Because I wanted to see whether you knew, and if you didn't know, find out why you don't. Cultural thing? Social thing? Personal thing?
Is this inappropriate? I apologize if it is. Please forgive me.”
Yes this is inappropriate. It is not my job to know the five things a man wants. There is a underlying air of superiority and ascendancy to the way you approached the questioning (especially from my perspective as a woman). There is a certain hostility that men have towards women that are self-interested. I think this is due to our society making men feel more superior than they actually are. Whether me not knowing the five things a man wants should have no baring on my cultural, social standing or personal mentality. And this maybe just from my experience as woman we are socialized to believe that if we desire or want marriage, family, male protection, support or community we have to fall in the line of what a man feels is desirable. (or else - oh I’m shaking in my boots 😂)
4. No you weren’t wrong I want a one-sided relationship where I am worshipped as a complete goddess like the cults of Persephone and Demeter. I am really looking for a willing man slave who wants to pay all of the bills and also let me sit on his face and boss him around. I don’t want equality, I want power. 😈
You know what your response made me intrigued 😌 I’ll send you a dm. It was definitely sounding like a “got you” type of response. And also the part of not telling me the five things that men want (not that I truly care 😂) just seemed like some I’m tryna fear-monger you type shit and I’m never scared 😈
Great and thoughtful piece. What I find interesting is this double (multiple) standard women must achieve of the classic Madonna/Whore standard as well as this evolving standard of needing to be seen fully as a woman only if capable of producing children - on demand apparently - while also navigating being dismissed as damaged goods for already having children. Women are the ones with the biological timeline and yet, if, when, where, how, and how safely we have children is largely needing to be dictated - and legislated - by (cis-het) men.
Loved this perspective. I don’t think a lot of men understand how patriarchy is a form of bondage for both women and men. They adhere to these standards because that’s how they’ve been conditioned to measure their value. They focus on external values and roles that are completely disconnected from the internal traits that if developed, would actually make them viable and coveted partners to women.
Very few of them consider or question who they are and what their value would be if they didn’t have money, status, etc.— this is why so many who are failing to fulfill these societal standards struggle with mental health and self-worth. It doesn’t just benefit women for them to start unpacking this, it benefits ALL of us.
Back in the day, men married for status as women did — but it didn’t infringe on their survival. That put women in a position of tolerating a lot of bullshit men would never accept as a human being.
It made me cackle how Cam was so perplexed in the interview that Dr. Cheyenne wouldn’t choose a man with children as one of her standards — like he could change her mind if the man provided enough for her to ignore her personal preferences.
Solid perspective on this joint. I appreciate your candor.
What struck me most is your decision to define and embody masculinity for yourself instead of blindly co-sign society’s definitions and then complain about it. The way we (all of us) relate to each other is trash, specifically the entitlement and insistence on being seen and heard without LISTENING to others. I believe once we begin to connect with ourselves and determine how we want to move in the world, our relationships will improve. Marriage isn’t the goal. But love is.
Sorry for the ultra late response, but you can't give what you don't have. I have to learn how to love myself in a healthy way so I can give that to others. That's why love is my goal.
This sentence, “If we want to be in women’s lives, we must be the kind of people worth being around” sticks out to me the most. This is what I wish more men would come to understand, truly!
ya know, I was worried about that line, but when I asked myself what the point of this post was, that line stood out the clearest. I'm glad it was felt.
I second that!
🎯
Agreed, it was so good!
I think one of the pieces that goes unaddressed is that if being “high value” exists, it should stand on its own. If you have to coerce and dominate women into seeing how amazing you are and act accordingly, you’re really telling on yourself.
That part!
never worded better!
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
I love and appreciate all of this, but this took me smooth out: “Since retiring from the NFL, Cam has responded to the oversaturation of men who don’t read, starting podcasts by making one of his own.” 💀
I wanted to give some tools, but the jokes must always fly 😂😂
Laughed out loud on that one ☝🏾
I was conditioned to believe marriage is the ultimate goal. I am impressed by this generation that didn’t buy in to that.
I applaud women who make the choice not to make marriage and children their priority. Children are a shit ton of work. And so is marriage.
Now, I have 3 sons, 2 of them are autistic. It’s important for them to have their father in their day to day life, which gave me the option of making them my priority. They are young men now, and still need some level of support.
Now, both me and my husband’s mothers also need care.
We have been together for 30 years. We are life partners.
I am finally able to prioritize myself. We could have walked away, but our sons would probably not be the independent men they are becoming. Many on the spectrum do not work, or live independently.
I love your perspective.
Marriage and children is not for everyone, especially if you can’t be committed to the needs of your children. I am lucky that we are both committed to the prioritization of our sons. We disagree on a lot but our values are the same.
I loved this comment so much because it's real and it shares your perspective and journey. Thank you so much for sharing this with us and giving the real about marriage!
Congratulations.
You should give classes.
Most of us believe we can have what you have without accountability, or humility.
🙏🏾
Haha, thank you for such a compliment, but I still have a lot to learn myself.
"This new man doesn’t have to be perfect because the lord knows I will never be. But they try their best every day to do good. That’s the type of man I am striving to become, a perpetual work in progress, but the type of work that fills you and the ones you love with pride."
Stanley, I am new to your thread but man, this hits hard! So beautiful. Thank you.
This was one of my favorite parts also!
Thank you for making time to read, and for highlighting your favorite part!
That whole last paragraph is exactly right. The world ran on women being slaves to men so that men could produce, but we no longer live in that world. Women are tired "mommying" men and want equal partners who can see them as people, not slaves. "Real men" are full, whole people with emotions who can express them without inflicting them on others. They can talk and share with their partners and they can also listen without judgement or needing to fix. We are all evolving. Thank you for an important conversation.
It's difficult for me to reconcile this perspective with the real world.
Rich, and poor alike, the man provides resources, and at least sex. I concede that most men aren't good at doing either of those, but still... If we're going to be fair, neither are women. Working women are making the same complaints men were making decades ago about the pressures of balancing family life with career.
If you work all day, your partner takes care of the kids, why is it that you still need to do some of their duties when you get off work? How is a division of labor "slavery" exactly?
For years I worked at home and my wife was out in the world. The majority of the child care and domestics fell to me. I don't know much about domestics so I hired somebody.
Which part of that is slavery?
Women didn't have access to money unless men gave it to them. Women couldn't even have their own credit card without their husband cosigning until the 70s. Throughout history, women have been second class citizens. Even today things aren't equal. Millenials are better at shared responsibilities, but for centuries, women served men without any rights of their own. That's slavery.
I noticed how materialism reduces human beings into “things” of value or not of value. I was talking to my friend who is trying to get remarried and she asked me, “what do you see marriage as” so your post is timely. According to the Muslim tradition, God talks about marriage as half of faith. In gender studies class in college, we talked about marriage as “legalized prostitution.” So I think marriage is somewhere in between, it’s the vehicle for family life despite what we want in terms of our ego or desire. People in villages, people without means, with disabilities, with debt, with health conditions — all of them get married but in this market economy we might deem them “low value.” It’s quite scary to reduce men and women like that.
Noha, I'm gonna need you to write an essay about this. I think what you're saying here should be fleshed out and expanded.
Omg Stanley did you get me mixed up with the fabulous Noha?! One Muslim hijabi woman for another? Such a high compliment, thank you because I adore Noha’s work and I hope she writes that piece! 😂😅 I know what it’s like to get confused as an Asian, and I don’t mind, really. I’m American and she’s Canadian, plus we would write vastly different things about the topic of gender.
Oh crap, I’m so sorry Sadia, it’s the avatar 😭😭😭
I saw the hijab and I assumed it was her since she comments on my post often 😭😭
lol it’s too funny!! I was going to DM you but I’m sure it’s a good moment for the internet. I’ve never been confused with another Muslim woman before in all my years in corporate, I’m used to being the only one in my industry lol but Substack is a big place with a lot of talented Muslim women writing. Anyway this happens to all the bipoc folks at some point anyway, lol
As I got to the end I said "that's it". I needed you to keep going lol. This was so good!! I have been thinking about this myself - why exactly do I want to get married and what does that mean for me as a woman. I truly want a partner, I want someone who is whole and at peace on their own, so I know that when we come together we are both choosing each other. Not out of a desire to find a place to live, not out of survival, not out of trauma, not out of loneliness but because we truly desire each other. I also believe in an egalitarian partnership so there's that.
Excellent points Dezire.
What does the guy you eventually marry want?
And do you guarantee that you will provide him?
Please don't say "love" because everybody defines love differently. How you think you're loving him might be something he doesn't even value. And vice versa.
Chad I am confused about your question “what does the guy you eventually marry want?” I have no idea I haven’t met him yet lol
Secondly I’m also confused by your second question “and do you guarantee that you will provide him?” Maybe you mean “what do I guarantee that I will provide him?” I think I have an answer but it maybe a bit more complex. Love is different to everyone. You are correct but people also think that when you get in a relationship you find “love”. No you are love, you embody that. So if you don’t already have love then a relationship is not going to provide that for you. This is why a concept called love languages exist. It’s the idea that love is expressed in different ways (like you said the way I may want to love him may be different from they way he wants to be loved or what he values about love). For example, I am a not a traditional woman. I am more emotionally androgynous and probably won’t be the more emotional person in the relationship. Some men valuing women who are more emotional or stereotypically “feminine” (that’s debatable lol) and I wouldn’t be able to always provide someone with emotional support even though I’m a great listener from time to time. I can be nurturing but I reserve my nurturing for the home front. I enjoy creating a safe, comforting and cozy environment where love thrives. (Ask my ex who always complimented my home). The home or hearth is a place of complete ease and relaxation. That’s what I provide for myself so that’s what a man would recieve when he’s in a relationship with me amongst other things. He will know that there will a place he can go to that provides stability and tranquility, a mix of nurturing and assertiveness. A place where we can go beyond the physical and material realms and nourish his soul. (Of course this may not be what he values, he may just wanna be slutted out and I can do that too but he might be a better match for someone else. He may want novelty or to feel desired. As I said all of these things are the nuances of love languages. I believe all relationships need a certain level of “meeting them in the middle” sometimes you will have to do things you don’t want to do because you love that person. So my goal is not to be everything to every man but the man that is for me will appreciate it. So yes love is essential but so is compatibility, sex, emotional intelligence, learning, friendship, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, values, shared vision and a lot more. I hope that answers your questions. ❤️
Thank you Deziré.
Let me apologize at the outset. I tell people that I apologize frequently. I mean no offense. But I tend to be blunt, and that sometimes causes unintentional offense. However, no matter what happens during this discussion I am not going to be intentionally disrespectful to you.
This does answer my question. If I distill what you've said, the man gets what you think he should get:
1. a place he can go to that provides stability, tranquility, a mix of nurturing and assertiveness
2. A place where we can go beyond the physical and material realms and nourish his soul. (What does this even mean? Are we reading Kahlil Gibran to each other? Who decides what "nourishes his soul"? Your Goddess Energy tarot club?)
So a home that you control?
And the man also gets to give you what you think you should get.
1. Someone who is whole and at peace on their own
2. Someone who desires you.
This doesn't sound like an egalitarian partnership.
I know in our culture we're supposed to pay lip service to the bromide that, "we're all different. We're unique."
But that's just not true.
We can't be unique if we're wearing the same brands. Going to the same functions. Observing the same holidays. Communicating similar desires. Lusting after the same items. And more often than not, after the same people.
Are we unique because you like red, and I like pink? Are we unique because you're right wing and I'm left-leaning (not asserting you are right wing here. I don't know your politics)?
Most people want the same things. I think it's interesting to delve into why most people want the same things, the same outcomes, but that's not important for the purposes of this conversation.
I am willing to bet good money that if you asked 10 men what they want from women (and they are allowed to be honest) you will get the same 5 answers. And I'm willing to bet these would be tangible things. Not inchoate phenomena like "nurturing" or "assertiveness" or "spiritual intimacy." Every culture, every race, every income bracket. We're really not that complicated.
The question I'm asking is, you say you want a marriage to a man (eventually). Let's look at marriage as a merger. You want some things. The man wants some things. We're going to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement.
You can tell me what you want, and even what you think the man SHOULD want (which is again what you want) but you can't articulate what most men actually want. Why?
Hard for the man to want the merger if the negotiation is starting out so one sided. Agree?
Chad I’m not sure what answer you really want out of me lol maybe you should write a newsletter about it since you seem to have so many questions and insight about this particular topic. I’ll end with this because it’s at beyond my understanding. All relationships are customizable therefore there is no standardized framework for relationships which you seem to be alluding to in some way. Say I did want to control the home, who cares? You asked me what I provided and I answered. We can agree to disagree at that point. I don’t know what most men would want because 1. I’m not a man 2. All men are not a monolilth so how can say they are not that complex 3. If you know the five things all men want why didn’t you just say that in the first place. 4. Egalitarian relationships aren’t exactly thing for thing.
Either way great discussion.
Chad I’m not sure what answer you really want out of me lol
Just whatever you think is true, Deziré. 😁 Would you be willing to grant me that?
This isn’t a test or trap. Just an honest discussion between curious people. No gotchas, no slams, no “owns,” I promise. But if you’re not willing to engage, no issue from me, Ma. No pressure. No argument.
[M]aybe you should write a newsletter about it since you seem to have so many questions and insight about this particular topic
Would you help me write it by sharing your perspective with me?
I appreciate what you’ve already shared with me thus far. 🙏🏾
(Also, why you bussin’ 🔫🔫 at me, Ma? You scared?) 😈
Do you know where you get this from Deziré?
All relationships are customizable therefore there is no standardized framework
Dating, engagement, marriage, divorce. Those don't make up a standardized framework? What about dowries or arranged marriages? Are those standardized frameworks?
You asked me what I provided and I answered. We can agree to disagree at that point.
Agree to disagree about what you provide? That doesn't make sense.
All men are not a monolilth so how can say they are not that complex
I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't want to ascribe positions to you that you didn't take. What I would ask as clarification is, what do you mean by “all men are not a monolith”? Is there a man who exists who does not have the characteristics that would make him a man?
If you know the five things all men want why didn’t you just say that in the first place.
Because I wanted to see whether you knew, and if you didn't know, find out why you don't. Cultural thing? Social thing? Personal thing?
Is this inappropriate? I apologize if it is. Please forgive me.
4. Egalitarian relationships aren’t exactly thing for thing.
I did not say they were. I said what you described wasn't egalitarian. Was I wrong?
Appreciate you Deziré. You don’t have to answer right away (or ever). But I hope you will. I find your perspective fascinating.
Take care of yourself. Enjoy the rest of your day.
🙏🏾
Okay I decided to just post my response here instead:
I wanted to respond to your questions, comments and concerns.
1. You asked - “Dating, engagement, marriage, divorce. Those don't make up a standardized framework? What about dowries or arranged marriages? Are those standardized frameworks?
Yes dating, marriage, engagement, marriage and divorce all have standardized frameworks. These frameworks are set by the current culture, laws, etc.
When I said that “all relationships are customizable” I was speaking to how these standardized frameworks are essentially played out. For example, one couple may date for 6 months, 2 of those months were spent talking, 3 of the months were spent dating (while exploring other options) and then 1 month they were exclusively in a relationship and then they decide to become engaged to be married. That’s just one example. Whereas someone may think this is way too fast and excludes essential steps in the dating process.
Those two or three or more (polyamory) individuals customize the standardized framework to fit how they would like to proceed with the relationship. Of course not all individuals have these type of freedoms such as arraigned marriages.
(For example, I want two husbands 😈)
2. You asked for clarification - “what do you mean by “all men are not a monolith”? Is there a man who exists who does not have the characteristics that would make him a man?
This again goes with your idea that men all want the same five things. That’s a very crazy generalization. You said previously that if you asked 10 different men what they wanted you believed that they would all say the five same things. I disagree because I have asked mutiple men what they have wanted and none of their answers aligned. That is a very bold generalization that reduces men to a monolith. There is a huge variation in personality, culture, identity, ideas and mentalities across men.
The last question is a bit confusing because we get into discussion about what makes a man “a man”. Is he less of man because he’s soft or likes home decor versus playing sports, no his interest are just different than the mainstream or homogenized desires of the current society. So essentially men are not all the same therefore they don’t want the same five things.
3. “Because I wanted to see whether you knew, and if you didn't know, find out why you don't. Cultural thing? Social thing? Personal thing?
Is this inappropriate? I apologize if it is. Please forgive me.”
Yes this is inappropriate. It is not my job to know the five things a man wants. There is a underlying air of superiority and ascendancy to the way you approached the questioning (especially from my perspective as a woman). There is a certain hostility that men have towards women that are self-interested. I think this is due to our society making men feel more superior than they actually are. Whether me not knowing the five things a man wants should have no baring on my cultural, social standing or personal mentality. And this maybe just from my experience as woman we are socialized to believe that if we desire or want marriage, family, male protection, support or community we have to fall in the line of what a man feels is desirable. (or else - oh I’m shaking in my boots 😂)
4. No you weren’t wrong I want a one-sided relationship where I am worshipped as a complete goddess like the cults of Persephone and Demeter. I am really looking for a willing man slave who wants to pay all of the bills and also let me sit on his face and boss him around. I don’t want equality, I want power. 😈
Hope you are having a wonderful evening Chad! 🙌🏾
You know what your response made me intrigued 😌 I’ll send you a dm. It was definitely sounding like a “got you” type of response. And also the part of not telling me the five things that men want (not that I truly care 😂) just seemed like some I’m tryna fear-monger you type shit and I’m never scared 😈
Oh you did your big one with this!!!
I was ruminating on this for damn near two weeks. I'm glad its being felt.
man I've been thinking about that interview so much and I have such a mixture of emotions still. sheesh. thank you for pulling out these strands
A great post. Thanks! Gender roles need to change, so people aren't degraded by them.
Thank you for reading, they truly do!
Great and thoughtful piece. What I find interesting is this double (multiple) standard women must achieve of the classic Madonna/Whore standard as well as this evolving standard of needing to be seen fully as a woman only if capable of producing children - on demand apparently - while also navigating being dismissed as damaged goods for already having children. Women are the ones with the biological timeline and yet, if, when, where, how, and how safely we have children is largely needing to be dictated - and legislated - by (cis-het) men.
So true
No lies told here
Why do women say it's being dictated by men?
Where are there men who aren't providing some resource, or some value, or something the woman says she wants, telling women what to do?
There are a lot of men like that running around now. The game has changed.
Have any links to YouTube videos Stanley?
I like learning. Don't use social media except Substack and LinkedIn.
I am interested to see this.
Thanks for this summary because I saw all the commotion around it but didn’t care to watch any of the interview lol
No problem, haha. I watched that entire interview so I was determined to put that time to use 😂
Loved this perspective. I don’t think a lot of men understand how patriarchy is a form of bondage for both women and men. They adhere to these standards because that’s how they’ve been conditioned to measure their value. They focus on external values and roles that are completely disconnected from the internal traits that if developed, would actually make them viable and coveted partners to women.
Very few of them consider or question who they are and what their value would be if they didn’t have money, status, etc.— this is why so many who are failing to fulfill these societal standards struggle with mental health and self-worth. It doesn’t just benefit women for them to start unpacking this, it benefits ALL of us.
If we ever hope to dismantle patriarchy, men must understand how it undermines and hurts them as well. Thanks for reading and commenting!
This legit made me laugh out loud Stanley
"Cam has responded to the oversaturation of men who don’t read, starting podcasts by making one of his own"
Thank you, i'm glad I could give you a laugh haha.
Facts. 💯
Back in the day, men married for status as women did — but it didn’t infringe on their survival. That put women in a position of tolerating a lot of bullshit men would never accept as a human being.
It made me cackle how Cam was so perplexed in the interview that Dr. Cheyenne wouldn’t choose a man with children as one of her standards — like he could change her mind if the man provided enough for her to ignore her personal preferences.
Solid perspective on this joint. I appreciate your candor.
I appreciate the time you took to read and comment. The world is changing, men need to change too.
What struck me most is your decision to define and embody masculinity for yourself instead of blindly co-sign society’s definitions and then complain about it. The way we (all of us) relate to each other is trash, specifically the entitlement and insistence on being seen and heard without LISTENING to others. I believe once we begin to connect with ourselves and determine how we want to move in the world, our relationships will improve. Marriage isn’t the goal. But love is.
Exactly, love is the goal!
Why is love the goal?
Is it so hard to love other people?
Sorry for the ultra late response, but you can't give what you don't have. I have to learn how to love myself in a healthy way so I can give that to others. That's why love is my goal.
It's always sad to run into people who don't even love themselves.
I love your candor.
Appreciate you.
🙏🏾
“marriage isn’t the goal but love is” 🥹🥹