This is a take that I feel to the utmost (lol) as a Cole fan. I think I’m a level headed Cole fan, though💀aight so here’s the take:
“I still think Cole rushed the song because the homies was in his ear. Had he thought it out a little longer he probably made a more mature diss. address the fact that he caught a stray from a COMPLIMENT. Like dawg get therapy type diss. He could sleep well after dropping that.” Propaganda
On top of the confusing humility and the discomfort Cole has going at K Dot (the Goat) the sense of being rushed hindered the believability factor, and I wonder if Cole had found another angle he could’ve maintained the respect he has for K while being like, “bruh, I ain’t deserve this stray. My Ali and big 3 line ain’t warrant all that.” The pressure Cole felt from the crowd made this situation bizarre.
I truly do love the way you dug into what Cole’s m.o. has been the whole time. The “I’m tryna be the best MC and none of you can mess with me, but i ain’t tryna contrive nothing.”
If anyone has something to answer for, it’s Aubrey 💀
My fault for how long this comment is, love this post tho.
I love this post, and no apologies for a long post. One of my favorite things about writing is the chance to engage with the readers. I love the fact that we get to share our love of music and theories on this whole situation.
I'm sad because I think this will hurt Cole's legacy, and I honestly don't know that it shouldn't. I get not wanting to make a fake contrived beef, but he could have put out a track where he said "You can't out rap me" and then proceeded to spit mind-bending bars. Then he could have challenged Kendrick to match that. As a lover of Rap, and of Technical rap skills, that would have had me just as excited as a "Traditional beef"
He needs to earn Drizzy or Drake back 💀💀 you see brodie talmbout “his back straight” and all that other stuff on stage?? 😭 nah bro. Come heavy with the lyrics not using your crowd to validate your insecurities 😂
Thank you for reading. I wrote that line and felt like I had so much more to say there, but was afraid I would fall down a spiral. I hope to unpack that one day.
Even as a rap fan the “who’s the best rapper out rn?” discussions led to a level of that battle sensibility. This is a great insight into it in a way I didn’t think about. Cole, Kendrick and Drake are artists I’ve enjoyed at different points in their careers and saying “oh all three are good” can feel like a cop out. “Ok but who’s the best tho”. Got me in fight mode too.
Many of the fans of these rappers like them for the music they did outside of battle mode. The worst thing would be dropping a diss track that wasn’t well received or having another rapper diss you with absolute artistry.
I think Cole’s best work is outside of the battle space.
This is well explained, Stanley. Thanks for writing it. Reminds me of a question Breanna Stewart got asked ahead of the Iowa-UConn game: “Does Caitlin Clark need a championship to be considered one of the greats in women's college basketball history?” Stewie said yes. Most athletes I saw answer the question agreed. Jalen Hurts made a distinction between “best” and “great.” He said the difference is winning championships.
Maybe I’m still in March Madness mode, but I enjoy a level of sport inherent to rap. “every element of hip-hop was initially based in COMPETITION,” said Andre Gee. “as long as it doesnt turn into foolishness its fair game.” I know that there’s a thin line between competition and foolishness, and just because rap has been something doesn’t mean it needs to remain that thing.
Also, Cole is well within his right to opt out. I hope it helps him sleep better. But I think we need to put the GOAT debate to rest as far as he’s considered because it implies a kind of competition he doesn’t have the capacity for.
Yess fam, I think sports, specifically March Madness is a perfect comp for rap beef. I think Cole can be considered one of the "Greats" but by opting out, I don't know if he can ever claim to be the best.
This was another great read. I agree with you. We should celebrate people, especially men who own when their actions aren’t values-consistent and take a step back.
It’s also sad that Cole can’t seem to imagine a non-violent spar around who’s the best, which is the epitome of low-stakes drama. I guess I’ll have to wait for Romeo and Bow Wow to give us what we need.
A piece that was much-needed! A well-written, balanced and considered take that is pretty much impossible to argue against.
My main beef with Cole is that there were so many ways he could have played it and what he’s done is yet another example of his annoying people-pleasing trait that I thought he left behind after 2014 Forest Hills Drive.
Hip-hop is competitive, hip-hop is provocative and if you’re going to engage in some central foundations of hip-hop then you need to stand on it. Like Slim Charles said in The Wire “if it’s a lie then we fight on that lie but we gotta fight”.
This is probably the fourth / fifth time that Cole has had to publicly walk-back something and it makes one consider why he would even do it in the first place and, in a very uncharitable take, wonder if his acts of contrition is just a way for him to maintain his ‘nice guy’ persona.
I’m not one to question another person’s integrity, especially if it doesn’t sit right with their spirit but Cole needs to decide on what kind of rapper he wants to be. For a couple of albums, it seemed like it was storytelling but I feel like, after he saw the massive success of Drake and Kendrick, he wanted to be more confrontational which is fine but it comes with consequences.
I was excited when Cole claimed he was the best and I briefly believed it but doing that against a bevy of non-lyricists and one Griselda rapper isn’t going to cut it. This series of events has strongly made me reconsider the past 3-4 years of his career and briefly removed him from the mantle of my favourite rapper. I don’t know if I’m being too harsh and I’m holding Cole to an unrealistic standard of consistency that most people couldn’t achieve but it’s how I feel.
Sorry for the essay but this piece provided an outlet to get all these thoughts out (for which I’m grateful). Thanks 🙏🏾
Your circling around genre on this too, Stanley, really got me thinking about the buckets we create, need, get stuck in…
‘But rap has always been a competitive sport, and to be dominant, you have to be willing to destroy everything in your path.’
… the definitions we feel we need to follow for proper fandom, best/most appreciation, personal alignment. Makes me think so much about those artists in Jazz, apathetic to category (Makaya McCraven, et al) or refused it entirely (Coltrane & Miles most famously), while still working the levers, speaking the language.
Love this conversation, and you do it big justice. Thanks so much for it.
Thank you so much for reading and for this comment. Also, I really appreciate you bringing Jazz into the conversation. Especially when it's a genre which has truly been the soundtrack for some of he greatest moments of Hip Hop.
Thought also on my drive minutes ago about how ‘best’ is by definition categorical. A sticky place, to your point, for any rapper to want/claim to be the best while also not committing to the rules that define the genre itself. Having & eating cake… forced binary. Hmmmm.
Imma keep it 💯 I only hwar ab2rap beefs on social media. I don't care about it except that in some cases it pushes artists to give their best. None of those artists are in my top 3, tbh but if it makes them give us their best, then so be it. Hey brother 👋🏽👋🏽👋🏽
Thanks for this write up. Cole’s apology reminds me how none of us, no matter how famous we are, are not too far from peer pressure and the need to be validated. This idea of being the best really has been bothering me over the past few days. Inherently, I know it’s part of who we are socially to think about the best and who’s number one, but we see the drawbacks of this approach. They are forced to come at one another for a spot that really doesn’t exist - only in people’s mind. In other sports you get a trophy maybe a bigger check but there’s nothing to really win when it comes to Hip- Hop. What’s really the point of it all bragging rights?
For me, I think the apology reminds me especially how human we are. He probably shouldn’t have did that track if didn’t “align” with his spirit. But we don’t often see a “sorry” in these spaces. I respect an apology- always.
You know I’m a competitor so I live for a good tet a tet I do think there’s something to be said for going against someone else that is fun and thrilling and a way to test the self (it also doesn’t need to be negative). I think what you win is bragging rights and a spot in history! (See Pusha T and Drake. Drake might be the better selling artists but Pusha T’s diss will always be tied to his legacy. That’s kind of badass to me). I do agree that if it really didn’t sit right he shouldn’t have released it because now that walk back is part of his legacy too.
I think the nature of hip hop because of battle rap it has to feel like conflict, aggressive, and sometimes negative. I think that’s reflective of what he was saying - society wants blood. I love your point about bragging rights. If I’m at the level and I still need to be validated, maybe I’m the problem. For the record, I love Pusha T more than any of these rappers. For me, he’s the best. - I guess I just fell in the trap.
Marc you give such airbender wise sage vibes it’s honestly the best. Idk that I consider it validation though. You know how in track you’re only as good as your last race I feel like it’s something similar to that. You’re only as good as your last song. I think that’s where he made a mistake since the majority of the “diss” wasn’t even about him it was about drake! He could’ve just dropped a line in a song and kept it pushing and I don’t think anyone would be against that as a response. Hopefully he sticks to his guns going forward and also carry that same energy for women too.
Jumping in here, I'm definitely someone who is competitive, and while in writing I think its hard to pick a "Best writer" I'm definitely competing and chasing you all. Whenever I see a post from @Marc, You (NJ) Alex, Isabel, Noha, Shivani, or some of the other writers on Substack, that fires me up. It makes me want to sharpen my pen and put out better content.
A chunk of my writing motivation has become the thrill of chasing your pens. And if we ever did a Collab, I would put a lot of energy into trying to match if not flat-out best you in discourse. But that energy has been so good for me, and having you guys has been the best part about starting this substack. I don't understand why Cole couldn't embrace competition without conflict?
Love this I also feel like part of the reaction to this was his own hypocrisy because he never had this reaction when women are involved (see noname for example). Also think it was odd that he said it had to do with friendship because where was the friendship when Kendrick dissed him?! Is it a one way street. Many many questions; hopefully he talks about it in an interview. Enjoyed reading this
Thanks for reading and commenting NJ. I thought about Cole’s response to Noname, but when I went back to what happened and listened to the song, I don’t think it was a diss at all. I think the reason folks took it as a diss is because he responded to her criticism on wax. But in the actual content of the song, he never called her out of her name, or attacked her.
J Cole is one of my favorite rappers though, so I have plenty of blind spots. Would love to unpack with you and others
This the kind of stuff I imagine we could sit over drinks and talk about for hours! I will say sometimes the term diss is taken as a response versus a disrespectful reply. I also think the context of their back and forth on twitter matters too.
That would be so cool. I was talking to my coworker about it too. I might need to go back to that entire exchange. I listened to the song last night because I was thinking of including it in this post as a critique of him, but the song didn't really come across as a shot. But there was all of this twitter discourse going on at the same time that I'm just fuzzy on.
What was the group consensus?! I’ll never forget how brutal and funny Twitter was that day. Every now and then someone drops the jcole doesn’t read line and I chuckle all over again
General consensus he has more smoke for Black women than he has for men. Like you said, pretty par for the course in rap. But yeah she had really bro saying he doesn’t read. I hope he’s corrected that!
It’s def a recurring thing in rap men have the energy for women but not for other men. A much larger conversation but I mean getting washed by noname is sad enough without also admitting you don’t read 🤣 that should’ve been my topic this week!
This is a hundred percent true though. I just think about the level of smoke random rappers have for Meg Thee Stallion, or how Drake spent half of "4 All The Dogs" dissing Rihanna, and a bunch of other women who have nothing to do with rap.
Nah. I loved this piece.
This is a take that I feel to the utmost (lol) as a Cole fan. I think I’m a level headed Cole fan, though💀aight so here’s the take:
“I still think Cole rushed the song because the homies was in his ear. Had he thought it out a little longer he probably made a more mature diss. address the fact that he caught a stray from a COMPLIMENT. Like dawg get therapy type diss. He could sleep well after dropping that.” Propaganda
On top of the confusing humility and the discomfort Cole has going at K Dot (the Goat) the sense of being rushed hindered the believability factor, and I wonder if Cole had found another angle he could’ve maintained the respect he has for K while being like, “bruh, I ain’t deserve this stray. My Ali and big 3 line ain’t warrant all that.” The pressure Cole felt from the crowd made this situation bizarre.
I truly do love the way you dug into what Cole’s m.o. has been the whole time. The “I’m tryna be the best MC and none of you can mess with me, but i ain’t tryna contrive nothing.”
If anyone has something to answer for, it’s Aubrey 💀
My fault for how long this comment is, love this post tho.
I love this post, and no apologies for a long post. One of my favorite things about writing is the chance to engage with the readers. I love the fact that we get to share our love of music and theories on this whole situation.
I'm sad because I think this will hurt Cole's legacy, and I honestly don't know that it shouldn't. I get not wanting to make a fake contrived beef, but he could have put out a track where he said "You can't out rap me" and then proceeded to spit mind-bending bars. Then he could have challenged Kendrick to match that. As a lover of Rap, and of Technical rap skills, that would have had me just as excited as a "Traditional beef"
I’m in full agreement with this!
Absolutely.
lol man’s called him Aubrey - I’m weak 😂
Bro, I coughed on my coffee. LMAO
He needs to earn Drizzy or Drake back 💀💀 you see brodie talmbout “his back straight” and all that other stuff on stage?? 😭 nah bro. Come heavy with the lyrics not using your crowd to validate your insecurities 😂
LMAOO HE DOES
You see it, right?! 😭
Oh yeah I haven’t been intrigued by the man from Toronto in a while
💀💀
Y’all. I know negroes are divided. But Aubrey may be up 1-0 😭😭
😂😂😂
We’re upset because we don’t recognize this behavior. 🔥
Thank you for reading. I wrote that line and felt like I had so much more to say there, but was afraid I would fall down a spiral. I hope to unpack that one day.
I truly feel like it could be a whole other essay — patiently await part 2 :)
Even as a rap fan the “who’s the best rapper out rn?” discussions led to a level of that battle sensibility. This is a great insight into it in a way I didn’t think about. Cole, Kendrick and Drake are artists I’ve enjoyed at different points in their careers and saying “oh all three are good” can feel like a cop out. “Ok but who’s the best tho”. Got me in fight mode too.
Many of the fans of these rappers like them for the music they did outside of battle mode. The worst thing would be dropping a diss track that wasn’t well received or having another rapper diss you with absolute artistry.
I think Cole’s best work is outside of the battle space.
I agree with this, and now I'm more excited than ever to hear the fall-off.
This is well explained, Stanley. Thanks for writing it. Reminds me of a question Breanna Stewart got asked ahead of the Iowa-UConn game: “Does Caitlin Clark need a championship to be considered one of the greats in women's college basketball history?” Stewie said yes. Most athletes I saw answer the question agreed. Jalen Hurts made a distinction between “best” and “great.” He said the difference is winning championships.
Maybe I’m still in March Madness mode, but I enjoy a level of sport inherent to rap. “every element of hip-hop was initially based in COMPETITION,” said Andre Gee. “as long as it doesnt turn into foolishness its fair game.” I know that there’s a thin line between competition and foolishness, and just because rap has been something doesn’t mean it needs to remain that thing.
Also, Cole is well within his right to opt out. I hope it helps him sleep better. But I think we need to put the GOAT debate to rest as far as he’s considered because it implies a kind of competition he doesn’t have the capacity for.
Yess fam, I think sports, specifically March Madness is a perfect comp for rap beef. I think Cole can be considered one of the "Greats" but by opting out, I don't know if he can ever claim to be the best.
This was another great read. I agree with you. We should celebrate people, especially men who own when their actions aren’t values-consistent and take a step back.
It’s also sad that Cole can’t seem to imagine a non-violent spar around who’s the best, which is the epitome of low-stakes drama. I guess I’ll have to wait for Romeo and Bow Wow to give us what we need.
A piece that was much-needed! A well-written, balanced and considered take that is pretty much impossible to argue against.
My main beef with Cole is that there were so many ways he could have played it and what he’s done is yet another example of his annoying people-pleasing trait that I thought he left behind after 2014 Forest Hills Drive.
Hip-hop is competitive, hip-hop is provocative and if you’re going to engage in some central foundations of hip-hop then you need to stand on it. Like Slim Charles said in The Wire “if it’s a lie then we fight on that lie but we gotta fight”.
This is probably the fourth / fifth time that Cole has had to publicly walk-back something and it makes one consider why he would even do it in the first place and, in a very uncharitable take, wonder if his acts of contrition is just a way for him to maintain his ‘nice guy’ persona.
I’m not one to question another person’s integrity, especially if it doesn’t sit right with their spirit but Cole needs to decide on what kind of rapper he wants to be. For a couple of albums, it seemed like it was storytelling but I feel like, after he saw the massive success of Drake and Kendrick, he wanted to be more confrontational which is fine but it comes with consequences.
I was excited when Cole claimed he was the best and I briefly believed it but doing that against a bevy of non-lyricists and one Griselda rapper isn’t going to cut it. This series of events has strongly made me reconsider the past 3-4 years of his career and briefly removed him from the mantle of my favourite rapper. I don’t know if I’m being too harsh and I’m holding Cole to an unrealistic standard of consistency that most people couldn’t achieve but it’s how I feel.
Sorry for the essay but this piece provided an outlet to get all these thoughts out (for which I’m grateful). Thanks 🙏🏾
No apologies needed, I really appreciate the passion and the thought you put into this post.
I’m not off the Cole train just yet, but this def left me feeling frustrated
Your circling around genre on this too, Stanley, really got me thinking about the buckets we create, need, get stuck in…
‘But rap has always been a competitive sport, and to be dominant, you have to be willing to destroy everything in your path.’
… the definitions we feel we need to follow for proper fandom, best/most appreciation, personal alignment. Makes me think so much about those artists in Jazz, apathetic to category (Makaya McCraven, et al) or refused it entirely (Coltrane & Miles most famously), while still working the levers, speaking the language.
Love this conversation, and you do it big justice. Thanks so much for it.
Thank you so much for reading and for this comment. Also, I really appreciate you bringing Jazz into the conversation. Especially when it's a genre which has truly been the soundtrack for some of he greatest moments of Hip Hop.
Thought also on my drive minutes ago about how ‘best’ is by definition categorical. A sticky place, to your point, for any rapper to want/claim to be the best while also not committing to the rules that define the genre itself. Having & eating cake… forced binary. Hmmmm.
Imma keep it 💯 I only hwar ab2rap beefs on social media. I don't care about it except that in some cases it pushes artists to give their best. None of those artists are in my top 3, tbh but if it makes them give us their best, then so be it. Hey brother 👋🏽👋🏽👋🏽
Thanks for this write up. Cole’s apology reminds me how none of us, no matter how famous we are, are not too far from peer pressure and the need to be validated. This idea of being the best really has been bothering me over the past few days. Inherently, I know it’s part of who we are socially to think about the best and who’s number one, but we see the drawbacks of this approach. They are forced to come at one another for a spot that really doesn’t exist - only in people’s mind. In other sports you get a trophy maybe a bigger check but there’s nothing to really win when it comes to Hip- Hop. What’s really the point of it all bragging rights?
For me, I think the apology reminds me especially how human we are. He probably shouldn’t have did that track if didn’t “align” with his spirit. But we don’t often see a “sorry” in these spaces. I respect an apology- always.
You know I’m a competitor so I live for a good tet a tet I do think there’s something to be said for going against someone else that is fun and thrilling and a way to test the self (it also doesn’t need to be negative). I think what you win is bragging rights and a spot in history! (See Pusha T and Drake. Drake might be the better selling artists but Pusha T’s diss will always be tied to his legacy. That’s kind of badass to me). I do agree that if it really didn’t sit right he shouldn’t have released it because now that walk back is part of his legacy too.
I think the nature of hip hop because of battle rap it has to feel like conflict, aggressive, and sometimes negative. I think that’s reflective of what he was saying - society wants blood. I love your point about bragging rights. If I’m at the level and I still need to be validated, maybe I’m the problem. For the record, I love Pusha T more than any of these rappers. For me, he’s the best. - I guess I just fell in the trap.
Marc you give such airbender wise sage vibes it’s honestly the best. Idk that I consider it validation though. You know how in track you’re only as good as your last race I feel like it’s something similar to that. You’re only as good as your last song. I think that’s where he made a mistake since the majority of the “diss” wasn’t even about him it was about drake! He could’ve just dropped a line in a song and kept it pushing and I don’t think anyone would be against that as a response. Hopefully he sticks to his guns going forward and also carry that same energy for women too.
Jumping in here, I'm definitely someone who is competitive, and while in writing I think its hard to pick a "Best writer" I'm definitely competing and chasing you all. Whenever I see a post from @Marc, You (NJ) Alex, Isabel, Noha, Shivani, or some of the other writers on Substack, that fires me up. It makes me want to sharpen my pen and put out better content.
A chunk of my writing motivation has become the thrill of chasing your pens. And if we ever did a Collab, I would put a lot of energy into trying to match if not flat-out best you in discourse. But that energy has been so good for me, and having you guys has been the best part about starting this substack. I don't understand why Cole couldn't embrace competition without conflict?
PERFECTLY PHRASED! Also honored. I’m always down to collab whether on music or fiction perhaps a fusion; keep me in mind.
OH chill. I gotta sharpen my pen a little more before I'm ready for you. Lol
Love this I also feel like part of the reaction to this was his own hypocrisy because he never had this reaction when women are involved (see noname for example). Also think it was odd that he said it had to do with friendship because where was the friendship when Kendrick dissed him?! Is it a one way street. Many many questions; hopefully he talks about it in an interview. Enjoyed reading this
Thanks for reading and commenting NJ. I thought about Cole’s response to Noname, but when I went back to what happened and listened to the song, I don’t think it was a diss at all. I think the reason folks took it as a diss is because he responded to her criticism on wax. But in the actual content of the song, he never called her out of her name, or attacked her.
J Cole is one of my favorite rappers though, so I have plenty of blind spots. Would love to unpack with you and others
This the kind of stuff I imagine we could sit over drinks and talk about for hours! I will say sometimes the term diss is taken as a response versus a disrespectful reply. I also think the context of their back and forth on twitter matters too.
That would be so cool. I was talking to my coworker about it too. I might need to go back to that entire exchange. I listened to the song last night because I was thinking of including it in this post as a critique of him, but the song didn't really come across as a shot. But there was all of this twitter discourse going on at the same time that I'm just fuzzy on.
I was talking to some homies about the Noname situation too. Appreciate you raising that up.
What was the group consensus?! I’ll never forget how brutal and funny Twitter was that day. Every now and then someone drops the jcole doesn’t read line and I chuckle all over again
General consensus he has more smoke for Black women than he has for men. Like you said, pretty par for the course in rap. But yeah she had really bro saying he doesn’t read. I hope he’s corrected that!
Really good point when you mentioned noname didn’t think about that.
It’s def a recurring thing in rap men have the energy for women but not for other men. A much larger conversation but I mean getting washed by noname is sad enough without also admitting you don’t read 🤣 that should’ve been my topic this week!
This is a hundred percent true though. I just think about the level of smoke random rappers have for Meg Thee Stallion, or how Drake spent half of "4 All The Dogs" dissing Rihanna, and a bunch of other women who have nothing to do with rap.
I went back and re-read this. This’ll find a way to be just as relevant six months from now.
The post, and the comment section are top notch..like, this is the discourse I wanted on this topic.